Forum link no longer on website?

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Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Chad - DTM » Tue Jan 31, 2017 3:19 pm

What gives?
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Jahnmel » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:55 am

Apparently the "Community" aspect isn't important here.

Didn't race Chumps last year but look at their forum 4 or 5 times a week.

Made a post to get the word out for a guy selling a pretty nice car and I think it has been seen something like 10 times here - Posted on other forum and was seen over 100 times the first day.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby RocksteadyRacing » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:27 am

I think Joey saw FB as more likable to his members. I'm sure if he thought the forums were preferred he'd push it harder. In the beginning stages of WRL the forums had some traffic, but lately it's been pretty slow. Even during race season, there isn't a lot of chatter.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby robertm » Thu Feb 02, 2017 11:58 am

Facebook is such a turd in my opinion. It's one long never ending list of dribble. There's a reason forums exist. If Joey got on here more than once ever 2-3 months that would help keep the forum active. I'm not bitter :mrgreen:
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby red0 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:25 pm

Interesting.........
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby RocksteadyRacing » Thu Feb 02, 2017 4:04 pm

There were several of us in the mid-west enduro group talking about the use of forum vs facebook. The problem is, both exist and we are the ones that decide where we post. It's not like Joey didn't give us a place to post. I just don't like to make posts on a forum to myself. I made a radio post here, and it took awhile to get some feedback. I made a post on the AER Facebook group and we had an immediate conversation over several days about it. One thing we did ask for, is if Facebook was going to dominate the conversation, make an official FB page/group so we aren't split in 6 regions.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Chad - DTM » Fri Feb 03, 2017 1:11 pm

ILoveOffRamps wrote:There were several of us in the mid-west enduro group talking about the use of forum vs facebook. The problem is, both exist and we are the ones that decide where we post. It's not like Joey didn't give us a place to post. I just don't like to make posts on a forum to myself. I made a radio post here, and it took awhile to get some feedback. I made a post on the AER Facebook group and we had an immediate conversation over several days about it. One thing we did ask for, is if Facebook was going to dominate the conversation, make an official FB page/group so we aren't split in 6 regions.


Facebook is for teenagers and housewives to post pictures of their cats. Just kidding, sort of.

Is there a reason it has to be one or the other? I think a forum with regular conversation, questions, educational tid bits, and banter reflects the community of a group far better than facebook ever could. Look at Grassroots Motorsports forum, R3Vlimited, and other car enthusiasts forums. I think the forum is certainly not outdated and by the involvement on those and others, car enthusiasts do enjoy the format. I would venture to say Grassroots Motorsports wouldn't be half way to where it is today if it did not have such a great forum experience. Sure their are chuckleheads out there in every segment of society, but by and large, it's an enjoyable experience.

We are an active team, involved with WRL since the beginning, ChumpCar for several years prior to that, and Lemons for several years before that. I followed the forum of Lemons for over a year before I had the opportunity to get away and join a team for a weekend. By then I had a pretty good idea of the 'feel' of Lemons, the people involved, and that engagement by the community drove me to take the plunge and fly from IA to TX for a weekend race. Had an amazing time. Had it not been for the active forum and 'character' of those involved, I'm not sure I would have went to the lengths I did to get involved if all I had was a website, a set of rules, and a facebook page. How does a potential 'new recruit' get the feel of WRL and those involved? Would you say they would have an equal feel of WRL compared to Lemons or ChumpCar after spending an hour on each of the respective websites, forums, and facebook? I wish there was more engagement in the past on the forums by the WRL principals to drive discussion, both informative, and casual. I've seen questions directed to WRL staff posed by others simply go unanswered. Why? Joey and crew have great personalities at the races. That's a big draw on where people spend their money. If you didn't know them from before, how does someone on the fence see that through the online presence?

Why not more online conversation and engagement by WRL participants? I see the same people on the other forums post and respond regularly, but not here? People are social, we like to talk and be responded to. If there is minimal presence by WRL staff on the forums to keep the conversation going, I think people just drift off to where the conversation is going on. Facebook I don't think gives that same level of interaction, and I don't even have a cat. I can say personally when I see other questions go unanswered by WRL staff, it acts as an disincentive to post or get involved. And maybe it's not a priority, and I can understand that, but I think abandoning the format is a mistake and makes it more difficult for new people to get a feel of the organization.

I want WRL to do well, we have a great time, we appreciate the commitment Joey and crew put forward on the race weekends and I wish there was a better online presence that captures those personalities for people around the country to see and drive them to get involved. I think getting rid of the forum or minimizing it will make it more difficult to get that message out there.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby RocksteadyRacing » Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:24 pm

What ^he said. That's pretty spot on. I find facebook to full of casual questions and etc, but when you are looking for how to's, full diaglogs, cited references, Facebook is severally lacking. The organization and the structure of the a forum excel at these. As an added benefit, when I come to a forum, I can go to and browse the information I want. FB causes me scroll, and pathetically search almost aimlessly for the information I was looking, but it will definitely suggest someone's cupcake factory in Tucson when I'm looking for fueling rules explanations.

I'm all for the forums, and would like to breathe some life into this. Right now, when I'm engaging people on line, I don't know they are WRL members because I'm someplace (or in someone else's house!!). If I come here, I can be reasonably sure the conversation is pertinent to WRL.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby mcoppola » Sun Feb 05, 2017 8:10 am

Both Chad and OffRamps spoke well on this subject. I, too, want to see WRL succeed. I've used forums to learn about a certain make/model of car, and various race series, also.
I find they are very useful in helping a newcomer learn, if there is enough dialog from the membership, or posters. Well organized topics, the way the WRL forum is currently laid out, is much better than scrolling through a bunch of unorganized and impertinent FB chatter. As it was mentioned, it's odd that many of us post regularly on another series' forum, but not much here.
I understand that Joey has stated before that he wants this forum to avoid the arguments and rules lawyering that other forum(s) have. I think everyone has done a great job of that.
More participation here would only help to build the community I feel.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Jahnmel » Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:55 am

I really would like the series to continue being successful. They are doing so many things so well IMO, but....

Seems that there is a disconnect between what the bread and butter of this series should be and what the series aspires to. This was glaringly obvious a little over a year ago when it didn't matter how loyal you had been to the series, how much you supported and promoted the series to other drivers, the only thing that mattered was that you had a cool guy pro resume' or that your car looked good enough. Didn't matter if it even ran or if it had ever entered let alone finish an event only how it looked to outsiders.

Purely my opinion but I think appearance is the most important thing in the WRL. You don't see a drivers forum for F1 or Pirelli or Rolex so it must not be cool so we shouldn't be doing it with the WRL. Well we are bunch of mechanics, salesmen, business owner, laborers, bankers, accountants who spend a really inordinate amount of our time and discretionary income doing something we love. Obviously we don't do it for the money. We aren't supported by sponsors or have a staff of engineers and mechanics that we can rely on, I think a lot of us look to the forums for support and advice and if not here we will look elsewhere but not get information directly related to this series.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby RocksteadyRacing » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:15 pm

Jahnmel wrote:Seems that there is a disconnect between what the bread and butter of this series should be and what the series aspires to. This was glaringly obvious a little over a year ago when it didn't matter how loyal you had been to the series, how much you supported and promoted the series to other drivers, the only thing that mattered was that you had a cool guy pro resume' or that your car looked good enough. Didn't matter if it even ran or if it had ever entered let alone finish an event only how it looked to outsiders.



I'm curious what the backstory here is. Are you able to elaborate?
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby LateBreak » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:33 pm

Someone messaged me to ask about the forum no longer being linked on the WRL page, I hadn't heard of that change but it does seem to be the case. I do know that racer involvement and input is a hallmark of what created WRL, and that Joey does cherish and value that, how to foster those discussions and involvement is always an evolving thing. For better or worse the forum involvement here has been lower than what's seen elsewhere, I think primarily due to the timing of when the series was started with FB growing ever larger and shifting traffic from forums.

With that said, I have heard from several people over the last couple of months who are wanting to help bring up forum activity here and help to add value. While FB certainly has its place and has been beneficial to the series, there's still something severely lacking in the ability to moderate and also organize information in a meaningful way, so it seems that there's also a general sway back to forums at some level, even outside of this one. Forums are great places to ask questions, share knowledge, and generally coordinate things with a large group of people. As such the forums that tend to have the most activity are ones where there are a lot of people sharing knowledge, showcasing their projects, or b!tching about something (rules? :lol: ) The best way to help the forum flourish is to generally participate and really add value by sharing pictures or projects, I'll do my best to help answer questions as they arise or at least direct them to the right 'somebody' for an answer.

So, I'm not aware of any plan to kill the forum or otherwise act too much like big-shots, I'll see what I can do to help revive this or at least communicate information as-needed. :ugeek: It does take a number of people involved for a forum to really grow, so if you have any content to share just fire away and post it up, that's the best step in making it happen.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Jahnmel » Tue Feb 07, 2017 9:26 am

I'm curious what the backstory here is. Are you able to elaborate?[/quote]

The preference for getting in to COTA was supposed to be order of entry received - previous races entered - multi team entries. We had the 5th and 6th entry in the system - bringing 2 cars - had numerous previous races - never had a car contact or any sort of driver probation and one of the cars had a couple of WRL class trophies.

Problem was we were running the Crown Vic and a Fox body which weren't the image he wanted. When the first round of invites went out without either of our cars making the cut, not gonna lie we were pretty butt hurt. We had purchased the '01 Cobra prior to this but weren't planning to rush the build to get ready for COTA but offered to build it and repaint the Crown Vic and put in a back window. We were told "Get them done, submit pictures and we will let you know."

For the record we did end up racing there being I believe the last couple of cars to get in. It was pretty frustrating for our checks to be plenty cool to cash when the car counts were low but not making the grade to be seen by the really cool kids. (WRL's dirty little secret, ugly cars and amateur drivers)

As a note also, I am extremely appreciative of the opportunity we had to race there but if that is where the series is headed with that large a percentage of pro drivers who drive like there is a big purse at the end of the day we will be going back to the other series. (But if you watched any of their pretty cool streaming this weekend, it certainly was no better).

Hopefully the WRL continues to thrive, car counts grow and we get more drivers like raced either of the HPR races or Hallett last year!
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby LateBreak » Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:39 am

Jahnmel, I hadn't heard the backstory on your COTA entry(ies) but am glad that you made it down. We've always enjoyed running with you guys and love your cars, you're a good bunch who races hard and clean. I'll also never forget the fact that you turned around the Crown Vic to run the first MAM event after talking to you about it at BIR just a week or so prior, pretty cool move and greatly appreciated. In any case, the input is great and I'm glad that you have been and are still part of the series. The overall look of the series and cars will always evolve to some extent, but it's still meant to cater to everyone from flyover state grassroots racers like me or you, to pro's who want to have some fun. Please get in touch with me if you ever feel like that's not the case and I'll do whatever I can to help out.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Jahnmel » Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:32 pm

I think the forum is a good thing for the series and would hate to see it go away. In spite of some of the tone occasionally (finger pointed directly at myself) it is great way to make connections and get support.

We have gotten to know some really cool people and look forward to getting to know even more. Ronnie Phelps, Shaky Dog, Barney Boys and Matt/LateBreak (always wondered why it's not LateBrake) are just a few of the great teams that really again IMO are doing this right. Always going to race hard, competitive as hell but willing to lend a hand where needed.

Hopefully we can stir up some interest in the Forum and keep it going
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby mogren » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:36 am

The lack of traffic points to a failed series IMHO. facebook is for cats and crap. Not for promoting a struggling race series.
When COTA came out and the steady racers were treated like crap and shiny new teams got in . It was a sign that Joey lost sight of a solid business model . Treat right those that treat you right.

For a new racer to come to a sight and look around for actual info on the racing , the forum is quite informative. Lemons has a ton of really smart guys playing with cars , as does Chump. Plenty of Pros, ex pros and solid engineers. All will answer most questions for the new teams .
I dont see that here and un hooking the forum form the site looks like a last chance coverup as Joey maybe wants to not show how little trafiic there actually is. Joey really needed to come on here and answer all the stupid questions in a professional manner.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Jahnmel » Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:15 pm

I don't think I would say failed series - Pretty fair number of entries already for this season. You know there will definitely be some sold out events and I really like the limits on car counts.

Couldn't agree more about taking care of the people who were there in the beginning to get you to have a chance to run at a venue like COTA. I would be curious to know how many of the 80 entries that COTA was the only WRL event they have ever run??

It would be nice to get Joey involved. Criticism can be hard to read but people would really appreciate any acknowledgment whether it is to explain why something happened or just to acknowledge that we screwed this up and will do better next time. There are definitely trolls wherever you go but I think most everything I have read on here comes from people who truly want the series to succeed.

What's the saying "The silence is deafening"?
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby mogren » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:12 am

WRL still has the no ballast rule.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Chad - DTM » Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:40 pm

Jahnmel wrote:I don't think I would say failed series - Pretty fair number of entries already for this season. You know there will definitely be some sold out events and I really like the limits on car counts.

Couldn't agree more about taking care of the people who were there in the beginning to get you to have a chance to run at a venue like COTA. I would be curious to know how many of the 80 entries that COTA was the only WRL event they have ever run??

It would be nice to get Joey involved. Criticism can be hard to read but people would really appreciate any acknowledgment whether it is to explain why something happened or just to acknowledge that we screwed this up and will do better next time. There are definitely trolls wherever you go but I think most everything I have read on here comes from people who truly want the series to succeed.

What's the saying "The silence is deafening"?
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Chad - DTM » Wed Feb 22, 2017 3:01 pm

Found him.......
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby mcoppola » Sun Mar 05, 2017 10:49 am

ILoveOffRamps wrote:What ^he said. That's pretty spot on. I find facebook to full of casual questions and etc, but when you are looking for how to's, full diaglogs, cited references, Facebook is severally lacking. The organization and the structure of the a forum excel at these. As an added benefit, when I come to a forum, I can go to and browse the information I want. FB causes me scroll, and pathetically search almost aimlessly for the information I was looking, but it will definitely suggest someone's cupcake factory in Tucson when I'm looking for fueling rules explanations.

I'm all for the forums, and would like to breathe some life into this. Right now, when I'm engaging people on line, I don't know they are WRL members because I'm someplace (or in someone else's house!!). If I come here, I can be reasonably sure the conversation is pertinent to WRL.


The link to the Forum IS STILL on the main WRL website.
It is right near the top of the page, on the right side, in RED BOLD INK.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Joey » Mon Mar 06, 2017 10:26 am

Hey gang, just a few things I'd like to add, starting with this forum.

Forum vs social media. The forum won't go away, in fact the link was moved from the lower part of the WRL home page to the top right corner with all of the other "communications" links. We re-formatted it last year based on what most people wanted to or were using it for. Social media is great because of the networking potential. The forum is great because you can index info, have conversations over time (like this one), have technical discussions, etc. Both are useful in their own way but because we are still a startup we are focusing on the advertising/marketing/outreach function which fits more into the social media mold.

This forum should be about YOU, not me. If I have to be here daily to keep the forum alive then something is fundamentally wrong. This a community of racers, peer-to-peer, not a venue for me to tell you all how stupid you are or change the rules on a daily basis because someone whined, or to glorify myself. I don't want WRL to be Joey-centric, I never did. I want it to be about the racers and racing. Period. That's here, at the track, on Facebook, etc. If you feel there is not enough participation here I understand. But what are you doing to help?

Believe me, it would be great if all I had a lot more time interact with racers, hang out on the forum and Facebook, and maybe even race again. But WRL is one full-time job, I have another at full-time job at TWS that actually pays my bills and feeds my family, and I have a family.

What do you want WRL and this forum to be? That's up to you. I don't want this forum to go away. I don't want it to become a circus like some other are, either. At the same time I don't particularly care for this specific platform or look but in the grand scheme of things I'm too busy securing venues, dealing with sponsors, handling registration, marketing and advertising, updating the website and a thousand other things to have a lot of time to spend updating and upgrading this forum, much less hanging out here.

That said, you can help by doing the following:
1. Know all about forums? Know web sites, hosting etc? Then volunteer to take over management of this forum. You pick the platform, you set it up on our hosting or another, you have a say in how the forums are defined, you moderate/admin this community. Open to one dedicated knowledgable person who is WRL-minded, or a committee.

2. Volunteer to get involved elsewhere. We now have 5 people who monitor and contribute to the Facebook page, some of the best content there comes from them. I would not mind adding one or two who spend a lot of time on FB and run across great content they want to share (car stories, racing stories, funny memes, etc). Are you a marketing/advertising professional? Can you handle car tech? Website development/management? I would even be willing to start having regional managers if the people with the time, dedication to the series and the right business knowledge wanted to get involved. WRL was not started by a group of 10-12 buddies who wanted a way to race when and where they wanted and have you foot the bill, or on the heels of a scandal where money disappeared and another concept was ripped off in total. I started this on my own wth my personal funds because we saw a gap in the market and had a lot of support in TX and the Midwest. Helping is as easy as emailing me - jtodd@racewrl.com to start the discussion. I am wide open to people bringing their ability and experience to bear, and my family will send you a personal thank you note.

3. Spread the word. We conducted survey via our email list last year asking where you first heard about WRL. The #1 answer was social media. "From another racer" was way down on the list. We all have a responsibility to make this series grow and be great, I can't do it alone. When I worked for chump in the early years, race-to-racer (grassroots) was huge in building the car counts, the forum, etc. Less so here. Talk about WRL on other forums (screw chumpcar's petty childishness if they can't handle the mention or discussion of other series). There are scores of racing forums out there. If you are on Facebook, share everything we post on your feed, retweet it on Twitter. Talk to people everywhere you can about the series.

WRL can be anything and everything you want it to be (except another entry-level crapcan series), all it takes is your involvement. One of my goals is to grow enough that we can afford to have a annual big event in the middle of the country (or East/West twin events) where we have a big racer's dinner/party, sponsor seminars, WRL forum (in person), season awards, and a weekend free racing. All it takes is enough people helping me pull the wagon in that direction...
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Joey » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:41 pm

mogren wrote:The lack of traffic points to a failed series IMHO. facebook is for cats and crap. Not for promoting a struggling race series.
When COTA came out and the steady racers were treated like crap and shiny new teams got in . It was a sign that Joey lost sight of a solid business model . Treat right those that treat you right.

For a new racer to come to a sight and look around for actual info on the racing , the forum is quite informative. Lemons has a ton of really smart guys playing with cars , as does Chump. Plenty of Pros, ex pros and solid engineers. All will answer most questions for the new teams .
I dont see that here and un hooking the forum form the site looks like a last chance coverup as Joey maybe wants to not show how little trafiic there actually is. Joey really needed to come on here and answer all the stupid questions in a professional manner.


Like this one? :lol:

I doubt that a failed series has multiple sellouts, people like Ross Bentley promoting it, sponsors trying to get in the door, calls from media for interviews and info, other series calling to partner, etc. Just because we don't put entry fees over safety and our own rules, or have a forum full of people bickering and complaining about every race and rule does indicate any failures. In fact it's just the opposite. The fact that we DON'T have people here complaining all the time is because we're running events that attract people for positive reasons.

I think it's actually a bit unfortunate that some people can only see racing through the crapcan lens, as if everything needs to be a carbon copy of a series that has been scrambling to copy a lot of things that we've been doing since 2014. I understand if that's a person's entry point and sole frame of reference, they just need to broaden their perspective on the sport. I'm fortunate enough to have a very broad exposure through personal experience on the track and from running TWS. But for people who are supposedly in the business to have such a myopic view doesn't speak well for that person.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Joey » Mon Mar 06, 2017 2:20 pm

Jahnmel wrote:I don't think I would say failed series - Pretty fair number of entries already for this season. You know there will definitely be some sold out events and I really like the limits on car counts.

Couldn't agree more about taking care of the people who were there in the beginning to get you to have a chance to run at a venue like COTA. I would be curious to know how many of the 80 entries that COTA was the only WRL event they have ever run??

It would be nice to get Joey involved. Criticism can be hard to read but people would really appreciate any acknowledgment whether it is to explain why something happened or just to acknowledge that we screwed this up and will do better next time. There are definitely trolls wherever you go but I think most everything I have read on here comes from people who truly want the series to succeed.

What's the saying "The silence is deafening"?



We accepted teams based on multiple criteria, not just when they registered and not just because they ran "X" races with us. At the end of the day we had something like 150 teams vying for 85 spots to run the first endurance race ever at the Nation's only Formula 1 track. As we said that was not "just another race". History with WRL did play a big part in the selection process but oter factors were important too, including adherence to the appearance rule which we have been soft on enforcing for the benefit of new teams coming in from series where car to car contact is accepted as a given, and stripping the car of body parts is somehow seen as a performance enhancement.

The first round of teams accepted to that race met every single criteria. After that we contacted teams to talk about whatever criteria was missing - new drivers we did not have on file, car that looked like it came out of a demolition derby, team name change, new captain for a legacy team, balancing the classes, etc. I will tell you that I also reserved a spot for a legacy team that registered late because they have done as much or more than anyone to promote the series and played a large part in helping it grow in the direction we wanted to go.

To answer your question about how many new teams got in - just a handful which is what we said we would do up front. It would not have been smart to limit the race to only cars that had raced with us in the past considering the draw of COTA. We need new blood, and new blood was allowed in. As I recall the number of completely new teams that made it in was less than what we said we were allowing because we tried to accommodate as many WRL racers as we could.

It would be nice if we were like the crapcan series and just dumped as many teams on track as we could. We could have had 125+ cars on track at COTA which might have been a disaster on track but hey, I would have made a lot of money! And that's one of the big differences between us and others - I'm not doing this out of greed, I just wanted to build a series that people would be proud to say they race in, that I would want to race in myself. And my racing background by the way is just as much "budget oriented" as anyone.

I appreciate the support from your team and the effort that went into the green car. And you guys were accepted to the race, just not in the first round. Note that the second race at COTA (USEC) the criteria was first-in, and then qualified to race WRL. We had a couple of new teams but many of the new cars were teams adding another car (Vess now runs 3 with us, Bimmerspeed coming out of CA added one, etc). We also bumped the entry limit up to allow a few more WRL-only teams who wanted in.
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Re: Forum link no longer on website?

Postby Jahnmel » Tue Mar 07, 2017 3:29 pm

Thank You!

This is exactly what I was talking about. It is very easy to throw stones from afar but get's more difficult when the target is looking you in the face. I think more of your involvement can go a long ways in improving the series and gaining a more involved base of drivers.

There is definitely a place for Chumps and WRL, we are preregistered for 3 WRL events this year (with hopes to add at least one more) and know that it will take a perfect storm for us to ever be on the podium but appreciate the level of competition and generally the way the series is managed. We have another chump specific car that looks like will only get some track day use because we are only planning WRL this year. We have another less experienced driver currently building a car that will run maybe a couple of Chump events this year to gain experience with the intention of running only WRL in 2018.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to multiple items and understand it can be very time consuming but hope you will make it a priority to keep doing this more regularly! It truly can only help the image and continue to promote the series.
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