2017 rules suggestions go here

Car builds, set up, race craft, safety and rules

2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Joey » Tue May 03, 2016 9:32 am

It's that time of year! Feel free to offer up anything you think will make the series better. Suggestions related to competition should be for the benefit of the racers and the series and not individual teams or car make/model.

We will consolidate the suggestions/discussions offered here in the Rules Committee, currently comprised of 22 racers in a closed Facebook group. Your fellow racers will make the preliminary decisions on which changes should be made, and the executive staff and regional operations managers will approve/disapprove.

2017 Rules draft will be published in July/August so that racers have over 6 months time to account for any changes that might affect their car or wallet.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby loftygoals » Thu May 05, 2016 11:19 pm

Suggestion 1:

Clear up the modification ambiguity.

Currently, it seems subjective. This subjective perception creates feelings of unfairness and favoritism.

I know the WRL staff has clearly defined PWR adders for various modifications in the app. These should be made public.

The arguments against it are:
  1. People then will build their cars to maximum of the rules.
    My response is so what? That's racing. I'd rather loose and know next time I can add a non-homemade wing or a header and still be legal and go a little faster.
  2. The rules get more complicated.
    That's part of a maturing race series. It's still going to be a lot simpler than 99% of the series out there.

In the end I think the benefit outweighs the concerns.

Suggestion 2:

Revision to Rule 6 b.

6 b. Ballast: Any ballast added to the car must be properly secured and disclosed at safety inspection. Teams
may not voluntarily add ballast for the purpose of re-classing their car into a lower class.


I propose the last sentence be stricken. I have seen multiple cars allowed to run ballast to stay in a lower class. I also have not seen the cars checked for ballast. Since this part rule is not being enforced, I suggest striking it.

Additionally, the ballast rule makes it difficult for people that want their car to run in multiple series such as NASA and WRL. To be competitive in their NASA class they may need to lighten the car, but this may mean that they need to run ballast to be legal in WRL. In this scenario allowing ballast makes WRL easier to cross over into.

Note:
To keep people from running insane amounts of ballast, I would suggest a capping the amount of ballast to 200 or 250#.

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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby magilson » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:27 am

I'm not sure if a new thread should be created but after reading the proposed changes:

Tire Changes: Unless otherwise directed by the Race Steward, tire changes on pit road are subject to the
following restrictions:
a. 2 tires per pit stop for races over 8 hours
b. 1 tire per pit stop for races 8 hours or less


Or what? You're in the heat of a 7-hour and you figure out your outside two tires are corded. You're in a tight race in your class. You run down pit road to find the steward? You change the two tires, go out anyway, and then your teammates drag the two tires down to pit out to show the steward that you changed two in a 7 hour because they were a safety concern?

The penalty will weigh more heavily on a low-buck, competitive team trying to use up tires rather than abandon a set with a few useful 10ths left as opposed to a team who can afford to do so. That's just one negative repercussion I can see. Because what it seems like it was created to do was prevent teams with more money from swapping in a full fresh set to the disadvantage of a low-buck team. So in reality this may create a problem at both ends while trying to prevent a problem at one end of the spectrum of teams.

Maybe it's a fine rule but I want to hear how WRL believes this rule should be carried out.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby magilson » Thu Sep 15, 2016 10:51 am

APPENDIX B - VEHICLE CLASSING SYSTEM

C. POWER TO WEIGHT MODIFIERS

1 Chassis and Drivetrain Modifications

2 Engine Modifications

If you could provide any clarity at all on how you've arrived at those values I would appreciate it. A small amount of math on each keeping in mind this is a PWR series should yield some impressive comparisons. i.e. a fixed PWR modifier of any given value represents a fixed amount of weight OR horsepower depending on how you want to track the change. Some of these tables you can generate end up giving unrealistic modification values/comparisons based on the power or weight they simultaneously represent.

Please, before WRL goes down the rabbit hole that series after series has shown does.not.ever.work can we just weigh the cars and require dyno sheets? The WRL staff can then use the Darwin rule?

I realize dyno sheets are an acceptable substitute via
unless a dyno sheet is accepted for classing


Maybe teams exploit WRL by coming out, obviously lying once their lap times are known, taking their trophy and never coming back. So in that case the existing Darwin rule falls apart. But is that really a likely problem?
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Slugworks » Mon Sep 19, 2016 2:04 pm

Matt, can you provide example(s) of a situation where modifiers yields a PWR that is way out of line?
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby celer » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:15 am

I had a question on the aero rules.

B.1.h. Aero: Aero modifications that are not professionally manufactured and/or commercially sold are open

and

C.1.Aero

Is B.1.h still going to remain?

And how does B.1.h interplay with C.1.Aero - if some aero is homemade verses manufactured.

I ask because we've been slowly ambling towards a homemade wing, to keep all of our aero homemade, and given our poor success building aero...

Thanks,

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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby celer » Fri Sep 23, 2016 10:44 am

On a note, we tried to run RE-71Rs last HPR race in the 9 hr. The tires were fast, and we did a bunch of suspension tuning prior to the race to try to get more life out of them.

Our half-assed suspension tuning on a set of old Rivals would probably net us 16 hr a set, alternatively 3 alignment changes and corner balancing sessions resulted in about 6 hrs of run time on the RE-71Rs. But the lap time differences were substantial.

We spent lots of time doing tire pyrometer measurements and still didn't get it right, but I believe if we did this for each track, tuned the springs, and probably burnt through 2 - 3 sets of tires on a test and tune, we could eclipse 8 hrs, maybe even get to 10 hrs. We had very good wear on our passenger side, and uneven wear on the driver side, but I believe that substantially more negative driver side camber & different spring rates would have evened it out, it wasn't that we were getting too much wear, just not even wear.

My 2c is I'd rather just see tires like these PWR penalized, because I believe with enough money sunk into these tires prior to the race, you could make them work to meet the minimum tire change rules timing wise. If you set the rules to 10 hours, and we spent 4k $ on tire setup prior to the race might make them last 10 hours.

It is a money game, and it's a pre-race money game as well as a in-race money game.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby RocksteadyRacing » Fri Sep 23, 2016 1:25 pm

celer wrote:My 2c is I'd rather just see tires like these PWR penalized, because I believe with enough money sunk into these tires prior to the race, you could make them work to meet the minimum tire change rules timing wise. If you set the rules to 10 hours, and we spent 4k $ on tire setup prior to the race might make them last 10 hours.

It is a money game, and it's a pre-race money game as well as a in-race money game.



I foresee WRL becoming the enduro version of NASA PT that isn't called the WERC.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Fmcokc » Tue Sep 27, 2016 2:41 pm

celer wrote:I had a question on the aero rules.

B.1.h. Aero: Aero modifications that are not professionally manufactured and/or commercially sold are open

and

C.1.Aero

Is B.1.h still going to remain?

And how does B.1.h interplay with C.1.Aero - if some aero is homemade verses manufactured.

I ask because we've been slowly ambling towards a homemade wing, to keep all of our aero homemade, and given our poor success building aero...

Thanks,

celer


Same question here...

Also, come 2018 when the dyno PWR goes into effect, can you do anything motor-wise as long as you meet the PWR guidelines?
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby surlynkid » Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:10 am

So is WRL officially going to move to dyno sheets in 2018? We are building a new car right now, and the PWR modifier items we add are being solely chosen to meet the PWR class rules for our car and published OEM power. If that all gets tossed out the window for 2018, we will have potentially wasted a lot money building the car the wrong way. What is the WRL future. A level of rules predictability is needed for teams building cars. We are fine with dyno HP, but not with switching after a car is built.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Steve » Tue Jan 03, 2017 7:18 am

Good thing I'm taking mine to the dyno in the next couple of weeks ;)
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby ABR-Glen » Tue Jan 03, 2017 8:35 am

I would also like to know the answer to this question. Perhaps allowing the "2018" rule to be used optionally in 2017 would be a good test?
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Tubby » Tue Jan 03, 2017 4:46 pm

surlynkid wrote:So is WRL officially going to move to dyno sheets in 2018? We are building a new car right now, and the PWR modifier items we add are being solely chosen to meet the PWR class rules for our car and published OEM power. If that all gets tossed out the window for 2018, we will have potentially wasted a lot money building the car the wrong way. What is the WRL future. A level of rules predictability is needed for teams building cars. We are fine with dyno HP, but not with switching after a car is built.


Take it to a dyno this year. Then you can plan accordingly.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby robertm » Thu Jan 05, 2017 11:43 am

will be interesting rule to enforce even with dyno numbers. Various types of dynos, various vyno setup parameters, various ambient conditions etc. Only way this really levels out is if all cars in a race are measured on same dyno. I suppose as long as your not close to the PWR limit in your class then a few hp either way isn't critical. In my class at my current hp (138 factory) a 10 hp difference is 150 lbs weight difference to be at class limit. Just like everything else in racing new rule will make for new opportunities/headaches :mrgreen:
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Slugworks » Thu Jan 05, 2017 4:38 pm

Valid points robertm, to add to that you have the issue of whp (measured by a dyno) being less than SAE crank HP. So either classes would have to be adjusted/shifted/scaled to account for this, or you'd have to apply some loss % to the car, which obviously varies quite a bit by driveline configuration and would be hard to nail down or apply universally. If we got into that rabbit hole, then you'd have to determine what whp is gained by the BPM free modifications (intake, exhaust, chip) which would vary wildly from one car to the next.

Not an easy change to make, unfortunately. But knowing where you stand and being open about it can't hurt.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Joey » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:02 pm

robertm wrote:will be interesting rule to enforce even with dyno numbers. Various types of dynos, various vyno setup parameters, various ambient conditions etc. Only way this really levels out is if all cars in a race are measured on same dyno. I suppose as long as your not close to the PWR limit in your class then a few hp either way isn't critical. In my class at my current hp (138 factory) a 10 hp difference is 150 lbs weight difference to be at class limit. Just like everything else in racing new rule will make for new opportunities/headaches :mrgreen:


So the current system is quick and easy and gets most cars pretty even, but it's not as accurate as if we were to allow people to bring a dyno sheet from any dyno. In that case we would get variation, yes, different dyno brands/types will spit out different numbers for the same car. But how much varition exists now? We know that intake swaps on some motors produce a lot more power than on others.

Right now we are just estimating, and that's worked out for the most part. If we go to dynos, we move up from estimating to quantifying, with an accepted error factor. And if we dictate specific dyno brands we narrow that error factor.

Personally, I'm okay with the existing system. It's less hassle for people. But it's open to abuse. Not only will dynos better quantify power output, they will also catch certain undisclosed modifications that we would not otherwise know about without tearing down motors. And it makes the at-the-track dyno runs relevant for impound.

One thing that is both positive and negative depending on your view - Two similar Miatas (for example) could end up in different classes simply because one is running a fresh motor and the other has 180K on the clock.

Assuming we do put this into the 2018 rules, one thing I'd like to do is have a mobile dyno at the track for the first race in each region of the country - every year. You have the opportunity to verify your numbers with minimal hassle and cost at the start of each season.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Joey » Fri Jan 06, 2017 3:04 pm

celer wrote:I had a question on the aero rules.

B.1.h. Aero: Aero modifications that are not professionally manufactured and/or commercially sold are open

and

C.1.Aero

Is B.1.h still going to remain?

And how does B.1.h interplay with C.1.Aero - if some aero is homemade verses manufactured.

I ask because we've been slowly ambling towards a homemade wing, to keep all of our aero homemade, and given our poor success building aero...

Thanks,

celer


We'll look at clarification.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Cnsprcy » Fri Jan 06, 2017 6:04 pm

I think that although the existing system isn't perfect it is better than a dyno at the track system and the 'dyno' system is far from perfect itself so just leave it the way it is. Go to a NASA East or West Coast championship for an eyewitness to the cluster...k that dynos create. Long lines after each qualifying event and each race, tons of griping among the racers and big discrepancies between the on-track dyno and the dyno you had back home. Add in pages and pages of new regs in the rules book and significant costs to WRL and you'll have more division and headaches than it's worth in my opinion. This is low-budget amateur racing and cheaters are going to cheat in either system. Personally i'm not going to jump off a cliff if i get beat by a car i suspect is cheating. You have a simple, proven formula that works. If it aint broke don't fix it.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Steve » Sat Jan 07, 2017 12:02 pm

Dynoing? seems a bit over the top when you have lap times to show how fast a car or team is. You can stick a 400 hp engine in a school buss but good luck when you get to the corner. I think that an engine dyno will only give you a partial piece of the equation when it comes to actual on the track racing. I believe that Joey is doing pretty good at getting the cars classified in what class they need to run in. Will there be some that slip through the cracks? absolutely but if it happens more than once to the same team then maybe action needs to take place against that team. I've only run one race with my new car and it did pretty well, I'm not sure what it will make HP wise on a dyno although I know at its current state it is really down on power, but being a Miata and having some attention to setup and good Stock components the car handles really great and so it still managed some decent lap times. I believe with time this series is going to be the way to go especially with Joey allowing race cars from all different classes to run together.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Enginerd » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:00 pm

Joey wrote:Personally, I'm okay with the existing system. It's less hassle for people. But it's open to abuse. Not only will dynos better quantify power output, they will also catch certain undisclosed modifications that we would not otherwise know about without tearing down motors. And it makes the at-the-track dyno runs relevant for impound.

One thing that is both positive and negative depending on your view - Two similar Miatas (for example) could end up in different classes simply because one is running a fresh motor and the other has 180K on the clock.

Assuming we do put this into the 2018 rules, one thing I'd like to do is have a mobile dyno at the track for the first race in each region of the country - every year. You have the opportunity to verify your numbers with minimal hassle and cost at the start of each season.

[take my opinions for what they are worth... I run Chump, not WRL, but my teammates run both and I've pit crewed some WRL events]

I like the idea of using dyno sheets to balance 'fresh' and 'junkyard' engines and balance between cars where the BPM increases are much different...and it reduces costs for a team who wants to be classed fairly and doesn't want to pay for an engine rebuild. But I don't think dyno sheets are going to catch undisclosed modifications... if I were the kind of builder to hide modifications from tech in 2016, I would certainly pull a spark plug wire or add an inlet restrictor to my engine prior to dynoing, and bring that dyno sheet to WRL tech in 2018.

Mobile dyno should help with that though.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Joey » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:08 pm

There is no foolproof system. Well, maybe there is, but if there is it's likely to be wieldy and expensive and a PITA to manage.

Noted that dyno sheets can be manipulated, hence the need for a multi-faceted system of testing and observation - from unannounced at-the-track dynos at impound to black boxes to good old fashioned observation.

Just a coupe of points to address so that we're all on the same page.

1. Every system has holes.
2. There will always be people who operate outside of the rules. Sad but true.
3. We don't have to go to a dyno-based system, it's under discussion (including here, now).
4. Simply observing lap times won't be much help, I can put 10 different drivers in the same car and get 10 different lap times within a 3 second range.

No matter what approach we take, there are pros and cons. The pros have to outweigh the cons.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby Joey » Tue Jan 10, 2017 2:15 pm

Enginerd wrote:[take my opinions for what they are worth... I run Chump, not WRL, but my teammates run both and I've pit crewed some WRL events]

I like the idea of using dyno sheets to balance 'fresh' and 'junkyard' engines and balance between cars where the BPM increases are much different...and it reduces costs for a team who wants to be classed fairly and doesn't want to pay for an engine rebuild. But I don't think dyno sheets are going to catch undisclosed modifications... if I were the kind of builder to hide modifications from tech in 2016, I would certainly pull a spark plug wire or add an inlet restrictor to my engine prior to dynoing, and bring that dyno sheet to WRL tech in 2018.

Mobile dyno should help with that though.



It would be a lot easier to hide engine mods if all we were to do is require that you show us a dyno sheet.
It would be a lot harder if we put black boxes in 5 cars similar to yours to get comparative data and roll you on a mobile dyno after the race.

My preference is to find a simpler solution.
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Re: 2017 rules suggestions go here

Postby mogren » Fri Feb 10, 2017 8:16 am

There are simple phone apps that show power, speed. etc. You need a good weight value. The actual power is delivered power, and would be very close in the same cars with the same gear sets.
Not hard to measure the out-liers compared to a standard car.
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